035: will she or won't she / delightful delays
Nins wills herself to unpack the dual interpretations of the song "Higher" by Tems. Arns finds magic in the mundane during a 6-hour flight delay.
referenced in this episode:
TEMS' (@temsbaby) post on X: "Maybe now it’s time for me to confess..."
"Tems Joins Brown Bag Mornings & Clears up the Lyric From her Song Higher": interview with Power 106 Radio in Los Angeles
0:00 - Intro
2:58 - Recap: Nins watched Queen Charlotte
5:30 - Storytime: our first Vegas trip
7:19 - Nins: "Higher" by Tems
36:37 - Arns: flight delay
58:28 - Outro
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Also, the the front of this book really bloody good. Couldn't put it down. I laughed. I cried. I took it to the L with me when I needed a wee. And I was like, "Yeah, I was like, "Yeah, this is my [ __ ] book." So, imagine my surprise when I find myself completely undone by the end of it. Cryb babies. It's time we talk about heated rivalry. Um, yeah. Leave us a review. We're really funny and cool and um, vulnerable.
That's the strongest. Yeah. This is BRB crying.
Hello everyone. Welcome back to BRB Crying. I'm Ariana. No, I'm not. That's not your name. Whoa. We're going to start that again. Cut the cameras. going to cut the cameras. Oh my god. Okay. Hello everyone and welcome back to BRB Crying. I'm Arn and I'm Nins and we are here. We're circling back. We are following up. We are touching base. Oo yeah. On something that made us cry. Mhm. here to give you the deets, the juicy tea, but in like a fun, funny, relatable way. And to piggyback off of that, um, yeah, thank you all so much for being here. You know what I heard the other day? What? Let's triangulate. I was like, what the [ ] I hate that. Triang I kind of love it cuz it's so crazy. What the [ ] does that mean? Circling back. Now we need to triangulate on top of that. What do you think that what do you think it means? Like if we could dig into that. Do you think it's like cuz with a circle it's like you you keep going, right? But versus a triangle. You're pausing. You're reflecting at each point. You come back, you know. I don't know. I could we could make it work. It grinded my ears though. I was like, that's crazy. That's a crazy word. Wo. Wow. Triangulate on our tears. That's what we're here to do today. That should be our new catchphrase, I think. No, I wouldn't listen. Yeah. No, I wouldn't either. Um, if you're new here, welcome. If you're old here, welcome back. Crybabies. Love to have you. If you don't already follow us, what are you doing? We are at Berbby Crying.podcast on all socials. Send us your cry recommendations. Any things that made you cry, rate us five stars, you know, do all the things. This is me plugging us. You got to be your own biggest fan. Yeah, I already reviewed myself, so I can't do it anymore. I need to leave that responsibility to you if you could do us a favor. Um, yeah, leave us a review. We're really funny and cool and um, vulnerable.
That's the strongest. Yeah, we are two things. Cool. What did you say? Funny, cool, and vulnerable. Okay, we're three things. Yeah. Funny, cool, and vulnerable. Yes. What's up? Let's move on. How are you? I'm good. Yeah. I'm just I I feel like neutral today. Okay. Which is like a great place to be, you know? You know what I mean? Yeah. There are definitely worse places to be than neutral. It's a Monday. We're recording on a Monday today. And it's like, uh, okay, you know? Yeah. She's so happy to be here, guys. She can't wait. I've I've come here with worse energy, you know? So, I'm in a neutral I'm in a neutral place. I love coming here with like a a pounding headache. I can hardly see straight and I'm like trying to read off my [ ] iPad. Crazy. How about you? I'm a little hot right now. Spring weather. This is a bit thick. Are you hot? But you know what? We're here for the vibes, so we can't change. Yeah. No. I like your little clips today. I think they're saunas. They're like a gift from the Philippines. And I was rifling through it and she doesn't like putting clips in her hair, so I was like, "Okay, well, I'm going to put these little lemon clips in my hair." Oh, is that what they are? I'm wearing my glasses, so I can't see. They're yellow blobs. I love it. Yeah, they're they're lemons. Yeah, I'm I'm chilling, right? It's just like, okay, we're here to do the thing. Yeah, but you know, whenever I feel this way, I feel like we always end the recordings feeling like, yeah, that was good. Yeah. Well, even when I'm in a shitty like shitty state of mind, I always like feel better after. Yeah. So, we're already like a leg up. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Should we do it? Do it. Do it. Yeah. Oh my god. What the [ ] is happening? Okay. I swear to God, we're really happy to be here. We really are. Just roll the transition music. Yeah. Yeah.
All right. I have to begin my story today with an announcement. I recently did something huge, monumental, maybe one of the craziest things I've ever done in my life. I quit my job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I heard about that. You heard about this? Cryb babies. Not tea for nins, but maybe tea for you. If you're looking for like the drama, I'm sorry to disappoint you. It was not because of any ill will cuz they kept saying, "Let's triangulate." Yeah. On this. I had to leave because of the triangles. It was It was too much. Um there was no storming out, no slamming doors. In fact, it was actually quite the opposite. It started out as this nagging feeling that honestly I felt a long time ago, way before this job, too. I've always known that being in accounting and finance not my jam. Really? You didn't feel like this is why I'm on this earth? Play around with this little spreadsheet. No. You know, some people though genuinely love it. From the beginning, I was always just complaining like you know I was always the one who was like this is so boring you know and everyone's like shut the [ ] up I'm here to do my job right like we all know anyway so this was a very long time coming me exiting the corporate world but of course I stifled that and once we started this podcast that was when I knew I was like oh this is the thing cuz I was like I want to leave but what what am I going to do like what This is the thing. This is the thing. But I was still unwilling to let go of my 9 to5, the steady paycheck. And it wasn't until the past few months when my intuition told me that there's something more and I can't ignore it anymore. But the catch was I had to be the one to make the first move. I had to show the universe that I was ready to take a chance on myself and I couldn't wait anymore to start living how I want to live and to start filling my days with what I love and nothing else. So I left during my last week of work. There were a lot of emotions, lots of grieving, lots of processing. And then at the end of February of this year, I was done. But of course, I couldn't stay away long. After 5 years at this job, these people had pretty much become like my family. So just one month later, I was back to visit. Got some bagels, got some cream cheese, you know. And during the team meeting that they they happened to be having when I went, my old boss gave me a belated going away gift that came right after I left. And so she was just waiting for me, which I'm like, "Wow." Like she knew I was going to come back and visit cuz she just like had it ready. And it was a book of poems titled Wonderful by Harry Baker. and she read a poem from the book and said, and I quote, I better get featured on your podcast. So, hey Teresa, you're featured because today I am going to talk about one of those poems called Sunflowers. But first, some context. Let me get the book. Wonderful. Wonderful by Harry Baker. Yeah, it's wonderful. All right. So, per Harry Baker's author's note at the beginning of the book, he writes, "Harry Baker is a poet and maths graduate based in Margate. He became the world poetry slam champion in 2012 and has been the people's champion ever since. He's a big fan of playfulness and vulnerability and tries to combine both in his work as much as in his day-to-day life." When I read that, I was like, playfulness and vulnerability. Do we need to fly him out here and have him on the podcast? Well, no, because we're only cool, funny, and vulnerable. That's true. So, I know that it's like the same. It's really not. Never mind. No overlap. Um, and then in the intro of the book he writes, "As much as I think every writer aspires to improve on a technical level, the thing I have really been putting the hours into is cultivating my sense of wonder to not just be amazing, but to be amazed." I was like, also the the front of this book, you know, there's quotes on the front of books from other people. Really bloody good. Couldn't put it down. I laughed. I cried. I took it to the L with me when I needed a Wii and I was like, "Yeah, I was like, "Yeah, this is my [ ] book." Also, that sounds so British. Give it to me. Everything is so British about this. You will love it. You will. Um, so Harry Baker states that his work is best experience in person, but we're a little tied up right now. You know, we can't really fly to, you know, the UK. So, I figure the next best thing is showing you one of his performances on YouTube. This is a love poem about prime numbers. Remember, he's a ma a maths graduate. It's a love poem about prime numbers titled 59. So, on top of being really talented, great writer, so smart, it's too much. Okay, there's really no overlap there. I I don't know what to tell. There really isn't. So, okay, we're going to pause here. We're going to watch the first four minutes of It's a TED X talk, and this is him performing his poem. I will link this in the show notes. Crybabies.
All right. So, I just played for Nins a little 4-minute video of Harry Baker performing his poem 59. So, in this video, we catch some of Harry's vibes. charming, playful, and the best part of his intro, like he doesn't sound like every [ ] you know, like the TED X or the the TED talk, how they're all like, God, I just saw this video where they were just like making fun of how Ted Ted like like they say catchphrases, right? Like, oh god, and my eyes immediately glaze over. See, the thing is every single one of you. Anyway, but yeah, charming, playful, and after his introduction, he performs the poem titled 59. In this poem, the number 59 has a crush on the number 60. But 60 thinks he's odd. But eventually, he meets 61 and realizes that actually number 61 is his true love. This is a very short excerpt. 61 was clever, see, not prone to jealousy. She looked him in the eyes and told him quite tenderly, "You're 59. I'm 61. Together, we combined to become twice what 60 could ever be." At this point, 59 had tears in his eyes. Was so glad to have this one-of-a-kind girl in his life. He told her the very definition of being prime was that with only one in himself could his heart divide. When I was listening to I was like, "Oh my god, I need to listen to this again." Like, it's so clever. It's so [ ] smart. And again, Cryb Babies, I link this in the show notes. It's only four minutes long, but clearly he's a genius. But the best part is that he's just as heartwarming. Like his content and what he's what he's sharing, what he's writing is just as heartwarming as it is clever. And another thing I love about Harry Baker, his social media. He's so funny. So British. You know how they, you know, how we always talk about how like British people are the [ ] funniest people ever? Every British person. so funny. Mhm. He is no exception. In fact, I feel like him being so smart just like amplifies the humor a little bit. He recently posted a video on Instagram about how some journalist attended one of his gigs. They reached out to him and so he gave him a free ticket. But in this unexpected twist, the journalist [ ] obliterated him. Obliterated Harry. He was like, "I don't see what the big deal is about." Yeah. No. Oh, yeah. It was weird, right? And so in this video, Harry's like walking outside and just talking to the camera, talking about like how much, you know, this journalist like [ ] on him, a bird [ ] shits on his shoulder. Crazy. Crazy. And then like in the end of the video, he's talking about like the article came out on Good Friday. So he was like, even though the article came out on Good Friday and attempt to editorially crucify me, I too like Jesus will rise again. Who is he? Also, [ ] this journalist. Yeah. But like, thanks for giving him content. No, no, literally. Yeah. Yeah. All this to say, I'm a little bit in love with Harry Baker. Yeah. Smart, talented, funny, empathetic, British. British. So funny. So funny. He also happens to have his own podcast called Something Borrowed where it's more of like a live show format where he happens to record it and he'll invite other poets and artists to come and it's usually filmed live in Margate where he's from and they'll talk about like something old, something new, something borrowed and something blue like they'll res recite like old poetry or like a new piece or something like that. So that is on Apple and Spotify and I will also link that in the show notes if anyone wants to check it out. So, I could keep going about this man, but I feel like the best way for you to get to know him is again through his work. So, I'm going to play you a couple more of his performances. The first one is a more recent poem. Harry is a new dad. So, of course, of course, he wrote new content. 100 poems for the first 100 days of his son's life. Got it. Like what the [ ] What the [ ] did my mom What the [ ] did my parents do? Okay, so these poems are encapsulated in his newest book called Tender, which was just released in February 2026. So the poem I'm going to play for you is uh about one of those really hard days that you have in early parenthood. It's titled There's No Use Crying Over Spilled Milk. It's about a minute and a half long and I will link this in the show notes, too. I'm playing this on uh this is from his Instagram page. So, I'm gonna read a little little snippet. But even on God, should I take out like a stringed instrument while you read this? The thing is, the hard part about writing this story, I was just cry. It was just non-stop tears. Every time I would watch one of his videos, especially the ones on new parenthood. So, I'm going to read a little snippet. I'm going to hold it together. This isn't even like my story. Like, this isn't even the thing I'm going to talk about. Okay. But even on the Why is this so hard? But even on those days when your mom is unsettled, because I am unsettled because you are unsettled. When I love you feels like a plaster. When a hug feels like an I owe you. Even on those days you and I get to have a bath together. And we both get to use our favorite towels. And you are your croc sleepsuit that is so thick you pass out in a starfish position. And I love you so much that I could burst. That's it. That's all I'm going to read. And I'm not going to say anything else about it. We're going to move on. Okay. So, the second performance I want to show you is of a poem titled Wonderful, which is the name of the book, and it's the last poem featured in the book. This is the poem that my boss read an excerpt from when she presented me with the book. And that's the moment she started reading it out loud. I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to talk about this on the podcast." So, it's the first She had a whole plan. She was like, she played the long game here. She was like, I can't. Okay. So, it's the first poem Harry ever wrote for his son when he found out his wife was pregnant. I don't need to hear like just No, no, no. This one is not as This one's not as heavy. It's Yeah, it's about two and a half minutes long. I'm just going to I'm just going to play for you. I'm just going to play for you.
She read that to you. The [ __ ] Like in front of people? Yeah. At the beginning of the team meeting, she's like, "Oh, I'm just going to read this little poem." I was like, "Uh, okay. I'm just going to share really quick some of my favorite lines from this really short, really short snippet." And when it all feels too much and there is little you can do, may you still see the best in people and may people include you.
All right. All right. Let's just get to it. God, am I even going to read these words? If I had it my way, we would just sit here and watch. Just email it out. Three hours of performances. This meeting could have been an email. Yeah. Yeah. But I do hope that these give you a sense of his work. Yeah. God, so good. I know. I'm sorry. I'm being very like angry about this, but obviously it's very beautiful. Yeah. If you're new here, the humor is how we do it. You get used to it. We talk [ ] about things we really love. It's like a quirky thing we do. And like when people do like amazing, incredible gestures, I sit there like, "What the [ ] is that?" We're like, we're like, "Shut the [ __ ] up." Yeah. Um, but I I wanted to show you specifically his performances because it is true. It is different when he's the one sharing his words. It's so magical when someone is sharing their words the way they were meant to be shared. All right, so now we're going to get into today's poem. It's called Sunflowers. In the intro, Harry Baker says that his wife's grandparents had recently passed, so he's been going to a lot of funerals and it made him think about what he wants to happen when he dies. So, as an FYI, I'm going to read most of the poem, but I will probably omit a few passages just for for brevity. So, if you want to listen to or watch the whole thing, I will link it in the show notes. I'm not going to do it in a British accent. I'm so sorry. I know you're really hoping I would. Sunflowers by Harry Baker. Ideally, I would like a hundred benches. Every single one of them facing the sea. If that's too much faf, I'd settle for the one somewhere in Margate. Somewhere you can come and sit and think and be. I don't need a fancy pot to keep my ashes. Just find a decent spot where there's a breeze. So the next time someone gasps at all the wonder in the world, a part of them is breathing in a part of me. At my funeral, I'd like there to be sunflowers. A truly inconvenient amount. For I, too, will have spent a lifetime searching for the light. And I don't see a reason why that should stop now.
Don't let anyone apologize for crying. It is honestly my favorite thing to do. Just make sure everybody knows how much I loved being alive. The only thing that I loved more was loving you. Speaking of which, if you are free, then I would love for you to be there. But if you can't because you're dead, that's not your fault. To be honest, neither of us quite make sense without the other. I still think we'd die together like a cult. And if anybody says, "I have gone to a better place," that is a kind and very well-intentioned lie. For there can be no better place than in a room with all my friends. Just promise we'll do this again the other side. Side note, let's also do this loads before we die. And by the time it comes around, maybe I'd hate it. I'd live for ages and my taste will change with time. But one thing that I know I will always find amazing is what a thing it is to live a life. P.S. Let's also do this loads before we die.
As you can imagine, this is a very popular funeral poem. I would say most of us try not to think about our own deaths, let alone the logistics of our funeral. We're always too busy trying to figure out how to live to bother worrying about what comes after. It's also kind of uncomfortable and like practically speaking, it's like I'm not even going to be there. Like why do I want to, you know, why do I want to like think about this? But Harry Baker's approach to his imagined funeral is gentle and playful and actually not very much about him. It's not like I'd like a 12minute slideshow of all of these photos of my life and dozens of flower arrangements with the ribbon across saying who donated them for the cause. You know how it is at funerals. Instead, it's seeing the world through his eyes, feeling all the things that he felt, searching and finding wonder everywhere you look, just like he did. Ideally, I would like a 100 benches, every single one of them facing the sea. I don't need a fancy pot to keep my ashes. Just find a decent spot where there's a breeze. So, next time someone gasps at all the wonder in the world, a part of them is breathing in a part of me. At my funeral, I'd like there to be sunflowers. the truly inconvenient amount for I too will have spent a lifetime searching for the light and I don't see a reason why that should stop now just those passages alone I was like the what like come on what are we doing god like the sunflower metaphor I [ __ ] is this what is this I was like I could write an essay about like what an incredible metaphor but then I was like like what an insult that I would be using like a thousand words to say what he said so beautifully in 20 in 20. Exactly. Exactly. In the middle passages, he's kind of joking about like the music dynamite by Taio Cruz and like the readings and like serving vegetables and stuff like if I have to pretend like it's so do you. But then he kind of rounds it out by coming back to the living and how death gives us a reason to celebrate how we lived and what we lived for and who we lived for. Don't let anyone apologize for crying. It is honestly my favorite thing to do. Just make sure everybody knows how much I loved being alive. The only thing I loved more was loving you. Every day we are finding millions of ways to not be present. Maybe it's like an existential crisis one day. Like, am I leaving my mark? You know, like, am I doing something that's worth remembering? Or maybe it's like lamenting about something that's past, something that you regret, something that you like going over in your mind, like wishing you did it differently. Or maybe it's literally just like thinking about your to-do list and all like the millions of things you have to get done. But whatever it is, Harry Baker's words pull us out of that orbit. Even just for a moment, like even just for the duration of this poem, first with death, because there's nothing like mortality that makes you zoom out and remember, oh, that's right. This is what actually matters. And then second, by bringing us quite literally back to life. Towards the end of the poem, Harry writes, "And if anybody says I have gone to a better place, that is a kind and very well-intentioned lie. For there can be no better place than in a room with all my friends. Just promise we'll do this again the other side." Side note, let's also do this loads before we die. I I love this because it's like he's saying, "Yes, yes, I know we're here to talk about death, but can we just like can we go on to the life part? Can we come back to the living?" Because there's so much magic right here, right now. So much magic just being surrounded by people you love. So much magic in being able to bask in it as it's unfolding. It's inevitable as humans. You know, of course, we're going to get caught up in the existential crises, the regrets, the to-do lists, but how can we live in such a way that the primary objective of our day-to-day is just like being present and being here? Maybe it's as dramatic as quitting your 9 to5, deciding to bet on yourself, trusting in the universe, or maybe it's as simple as making the conscious choice to exist beyond our worries and instead to soak in that magic of right now. Because there are a million things that I could worry about right now. What's my daughter going to eat when she wakes up from her nap? Where am I going to take her on this whole week that she's on spring break and I have to like entertain her? Like there's so many things that's running on in the background of my mind. But what if I could just accept that the worries will always be there and just enjoy being on this couch sitting across from my best friend in the whole world pouring our hearts out to each other marveling that we get to exist in this universe again. Harry said it best, for there can be no better place than in a room with all my friends. Just promise we'll do this again the other side. Side note, let's also do this loads before we die. So, thank you, Harry Baker, for sharing the gift of your words. You are an extraordinary poet, but an even more extraordinary human. And for all of you listening, I hope I hope this pulls you out of your orbit, even for a little bit. and helps you also remember like what are the things that that we're really truly living for. That was wonderful.
Yeah. I was thinking after you had read the 59 poem, I was like thinking I love how he is a maths major like what graduate graduate. Yeah, smart dude. But what I love about that is like there are people walking around this earth that are so [ ] smart. They can pull, you know, facts off the top of their head. They can explain really complex systems and whatever. But I think that what matters is like being able to have all this knowledge and then pull out like meaning. Yeah. Like purpose. Genius. And for me that is the genius to be able to take the [ ] the hard facts and the reality and to like make it this love poem. Yeah. And like like to use it as a tool to like to create art. Yes. It's It's too much for my little brain. It's too much for me. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, I know. Do you love when people can convey We already said this, can convey things in onetenth of the time it would take us to do it? Listen, I've never been succinct. Why change? You know, cool, funny, vulnerable. That's it. That's it. I I also do want to give a huge shout out to your co-workers whom I've not met, but I feel like I know them because of how much you talk about them and how much love you clearly have for them and you've always told me how supportive they've been for you on this journey for us and this show. But I think that's such a beautiful thing that they have been part of the reason why you enjoy life so much. Mhm. Yeah. And Teresa was like, "And don't you forget it." Yeah. Shout out Teresa. Shout out Teresa. Like what a wonderful boss to have been able to work with. Yeah. And I felt so seen when she shared this with me cuz I was like, "Oh, she really does understand me. Like she knows that like this is something that would touch me." Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, it really is. I am so grateful and that's why I made it so hard to leave because it's not like I was leaving a toxic place. Like it was having to say goodbye to people you love. Mhm. You know, but you're right, like when I think of that passage of just being in a room with the people you love, like they're there, too. Like that's them. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great thing and I'm really happy that you have people like that in your life. Yeah. Thanks. Love you guys. Miss you guys. Yeah. He's on tour right now for his new book, Tender. Mhm. They're all in the UK. I'm like, well, he can send us an invite. We can go to the show and then he can talk major [ ] about this podcast. I'll take the press. [ ] it. Oh my god. A gift of a man. Shout out. Shout out Harry Baker. I'm going to see you live one day. Mhm. Me, too. Our emails are in the show notes if you want to send us some tickets. Yeah. Watch. It's like $100 for the ticket, but we have to like pay like $1,200 to get to the UK. Yeah, it's fine. Worth it. I'm not worried about that. I'm just in the moment, you know? Yeah. I'm living now. Living now.
Okay, long one today. Okay. God, this took me I don't know why it took me so long to write. Like I think there was just a lot that I had to first consume and then I was like, "Oh my god, what what do I even say?" You know? Yeah. It's like, "Holy shit." And then I had to like sit on my lap, you know, like I don't know. It just was so hard to pull this story out of me, but it so needs to be talked about. Okay. All right. So, here I go. Every once in a while, the world is blessed with a TV show. Okay. that shakes pop culture with such a tour div force that for a moment in time it is all anyone can think about or talk about or post about. It's to me it's like one of the best things about having internet because like you'll watch the thing and then you'll like go online and like the memes that come from TV it's better than therapy sometimes in those moments where I'm scrolling Mhm. Living in the moment, scrolling. I'm healed, you know. Yeah. Healed. Okay. Moments from TV shows that I still remember watching for the first time. The first the first one that came to mind was Kelly Clarkson winning American Idol. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yes. Like we were what, eight? Eight. Yeah. You still [ ] remember? I remember exactly where I was what I was doing. Uh season finale of Friends. I don't think you were big friendsly, but I wasn't. But um but I remember I still remember the finale though. You know, Red Wedding, Game of Thrones. I was going to say that was the one that came to mind. Was it? Okay. I was going to ask you like [ ] [ ] all that [ ] dude. That [ ] me up. But like, okay, all of these iconic moments from these legendary shows when you watch them, you're so affected, you never forget it or how it made you feel. Mhm. Mhm. So today I want to talk about one such show that has been a sweeping sensation since its release. I genuinely cannot overstate like how successful and how popular the show has been. And to be honest, I'm a little late to the game here. Mhm. And if I'm being really honest, I did not seek out to watch the show because I thought I could make a story out of it. I see. I was like, I just want to know what everyone's talking about on Tik Tok. Yeah. I was just curious about it. The people looked really hot. I thought, great, I I can hop on this train. Sure. Mhm. So, I knew almost nothing about the show. Got myself ready to watch this low stakes, fun, spicy little story about two queer hockey players. So, imagine my surprise when I find myself completely undone by the end of it. Cryb babies, it's time we talk about heated rivalry. I knew it. I haven't watched this yet. I know. I intentionally was not yet because someone told me like, "You got to watch it. You're going to cry so hard." And I was like, "I'm not ready." No one [ ] told me this. No, I knew that. Yeah. I No one [ ] told me this. I was like, "Okay, look at me." No, I almost watched it with the intention of talking about it, but then I was like, "Ah, that sounds hard." So, thank you. I actually am going to watch it though. Like, this is very much on my list to watch. I've just been No, I swear to God. I swear to God. I swear. Okay. Sure. How about I watch the first episode after after we record? Okay. Well, you're going to know what's going to happen to you. No. No. This is really on my list, though. [ ] All right, that's fine. Okay. All right. Sources for today, aside from the show, is the book on which it's based. Um, 2019 novel by the same title, Heated Rivalry by Rachel Reid, a 2023 Washington Post article by Rachel Kurszius, and an article for Episodic Medium by Miles McNut. Okay. You know, before we jump in, I got to edge you with that context. Mhm. Yep. All right. Heated Rivalry, the TV show, is an adaptation from the 2019 novel written by Canadian author Rachel Reed. It is part of a larger gamecher series, which began in 2018 and primarily focuses on different queer stories within the world of professional hockey. In this 2023 article by the Washington Post entitled, "Hockey romance novels are in the news. Here's why they are so popular." Rachel Reed was asked what inspired her to write the series. Now, obviously, she is Canadian. Shout out Canada, by the way. Our favorite country. [ ] love Canada. Biggest fans. She's Canadian, so we know she likes hockey, too, from what I've heard. maybe dabbles. So, it makes sense that her love for writing and her love for hockey morphed into this project of hers. But she says, quote, "Game changer came from a place of me being angry at hockey culture and how clearly homophobic it was and is, and all the other things that made me really ashamed to be a hockey fan. That whole series attacks the NHL and hockey culture quite a bit." an attack she does. But from the ashes of the alpha male toxicity she so eloquently takes down comes a series of stories showcasing men being tender, vulnerable, and emotional. Insert big shock as to why this resonates with so many women. This is so weird. What? Yeah. Yeah. So, the TV adaptation, literally a day after the Washington Post article I referenced came out back in 2023, Canadian actor, director, screenwriter, producer Jacob Tierney reached out to Rachel Reid, the author, and was like, "I need to make this into a show." And I just want to highlight Jacob Tierney here for a second because I have not read this book. I have not read anything within the Game Changer series. I'm solely going off of my experience watching the show, but from what I've gathered from fan reactions and people who are big fans of the book, it sounds like Jacob Tierney understood Rachel Reed's story and these characters so intimately that he knew exactly how to bring it to life. He really really advocated for the authenticity to the story and just created magic basically on the show. So in January 2025, the show was finally green lit by Canadian streaming platform Crave and Bell Media. And then in November of 2025, Heated Rivalry is released on both Crave and HBO. Q worldwide phenomenon. Okay, plot. Obviously, spoilers, blah blah blah blah. Let's [ ] go. Wow, she really said that. So, Heated Rivalry focuses on two professional hockey players, Shane Hollander and Ilia Rosenoff. Uh Shane Hollander, played by Hudson Williams, is the Canadian Golden Boy, half Japanese, half white, goody two shoes, who is deeply loved and sheltered by his super involved, happily married parents. What is that like? Serious, disciplined, uptight, often described as boring by Ilia. He's also endearingly awkward and despite being one of the greatest hockey players of his generation, really insecure in social settings, but like so nice. Like every time he gets ragged on, he's one of those people where like his only quip back is, "Fuck you." I can hear it. [ ] you. You know, like not funny or like quick, but he's boring and we love it. Yeah. Also, I looked up his supposed birthday, May 10. Taurus. Okay. Taurus. Yeah. She's like grounded, you know. Makes sense. Then we have Mr. Ilia Roenov. Terrible Russian accent, by the way. Russian hockeyy's bad boy. June 15. Gemini. This dude is nuts. Okay. Born to a powerful but whack as [ ] family in Moscow, Ilia lives a very privileged life. But his relationship with his brother and his dad are very, very complicated. So to bury that pain, Ilia projects this incredibly cocky, douchy, bad boy persona that you can only get away with if you're one of the [ ] goats in hockey. very good. Or so I hear. He smokes, he parties, he's a bit of a playboy and has a reputation for being a ladies man. In the first episode, we see Shane and Ilia meet at this international prospects hockey championship final between Canada and Russia. It's like the big tournament right before they get drafted to play professionally. Mhm. They are the best players on their respective teams and therefore the top two picks for the upcoming draft. 6 months later, Ilia is drafted first to the Boston Raiders and Shane is picked up second by the Montreal Metros. And Shane is like a little butt hurt about this because Ilia always seems to just beat him. And the world starts to notice this as they both begin to play professionally, this budding rivalry between these two rookies. So throughout the first episode, they meet each other a few times during the season. There are some fertive glances and a palpable sexual tension during a joint workout at a hotel gym. I can't wait to watch this. God damn it. You snooze, you lose. I You know what? It really is my fault. I really did snooze. They play each other throughout the season as well. So, they see each other at games. They also see each other at events. The life of a celebrity, you know. Yeah, it's hard. At the end of this episode, I'll just jump to the chase. I got five more episodes to cover. They start hooking up. Oo. Okay. In secret. Then over the next 3 years, they have a little situationship, sexing back and forth, meeting up whenever they're scheduled to play against one another. 3 years. I I would go crazy. I would lose my [ ] mind, actually. Are you out of your mind? Okay, I do want to pause here for a second and talk about the explicit sex scenes that are part of the story and the show. Since the start of humanity, we have been obsessed over the salaciousness of sex. Did you know it sells? What you don't say? It gets people talking. We know this. But even so, the novelty of watching gay sex in mainstream media is still new to a lot of audiences. So the discourse around it, I feel, has almost overshadowed what the show is actually doing, which is showing male intimacy as something tender and vulnerable and deeply human, not just physical. And I really want to highlight the way that Jacob Tierney, the creator, crafted these sex scenes. Not at all gratuitous or for the sake of just getting people all horned up, which I will admit is a byproduct. But um in fact, the most nudity that we see on the show is just ass. Incredible ass though. By the way, can we just say can we just put it out there? Connor's story sculpted by God herself. Okay, but again, I do want to emphasize this point that these intimate moments that we see between Shane and Ilia are so much more than horn dog smut. These scenes reveal who these characters are deep down. In an article for episodic medium, the creator, Jacob Tierney, says, "Sex is character development. It's not just a random sex scene in every episode. They learn about each other and they learn about themselves through this. For Shane, we see him navigating this uncharted territory, having never done this with another man before. And here is Ilia offering him safety and security through it all. For Ilia, with each meeting, more and more of his protective shell becomes undone until sex becomes not a physical act, but an intimate one. But we're not there yet. We're only 3 years into this situationship. Mhm. At this point for Ilia, these clandestine meetings are strictly an escape and a distraction from the perils of his real life. During the off seasons, Ilia has to go back to Russia. His father, a former police officer, is super controlling and demanding of Ilia. and his piece of [ __ ] older brother basically demands that Ilia fund their entire family's lifestyle which for his brother includes a lot of coke. Nice. It's not. We don't like that. It's complicated and messy and lonely, but it's like not really in line with like Ilia's brand. So, he doesn't talk about it. Doesn't go to therapy. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. But whenever Shane attempts to know Ilia beyond just his body, Ilia shuts down and pushes him away. I want to show you a couple of scenes highlighting this hot and cold dynamic. This first scene is the end of episode 1. At the end of their rookie season, Shane and Ilia are at an awards show. Shane wins rookie of the year and Ilia ignores him all night at the afterparty. Shane thinks that Ilia is just being a sore loser, but really Ilia is thinking about how now that the season is over, he has to go home in a few days. So again, this is at the end of episode one.
I'm just going to keep going. Keep going. I'm just going to keep going. Um, okay. So, I'm going to introduce another scene for you. In episode two, we actually spend a lot of time in Russia. Never been. Uh, there's like the Winter Olympics in Sochi and then this whole off season. So, all this time that Ilia is back home really messes with him and he's just like not himself. So he basically stops responding to Shane for like six [ ] months. Like just straight up ghosts him. Shane is like, "What the fuck?" Like Mhm. Again, I'd lose my mind. I'd lose my [ ] mind. And there are even moments during the Olympics when Shane is just trying to offer any sort of olive branch, like even just checking in to see if he's okay, like just purely from a friendship platonic stance. And even then, Ilia just rejects every attempt. So Shane is like, "Okay, bye." Yeah, I guess. So I want to play you this next scene where after 6 months of basically silence, Shane and Ilia finally reunite at the next season's award show where they have to present together and they finally talk when they run into each other in the bathroom. This is about halfway through episode 2.
Okay, so in this scene after they present at this award show, Shane goes to collect himself in the bathroom because what the [ ] He just saw his ex situationship. Understandable. I would throw up. Okay. Ilia finds him and they have this heated exchange in the bathroom. Shane is so clearly upset like, "Where the [ ] have you been? How could you just drop me like that?" And Ilia is again guarded, kind of laughing it off, doesn't tell him what's been really bothering him, but in his own way, he apologizes in the form of dirty talk. Yes. But underneath that, you know, and Shane knows, what he's really saying is, "I'm sorry. I missed you."
So, now I'm going to jump to [ ] three more years of this back and forth. They started hooking up in 2010. At this point, it is now 2016. Nice. Again, I'm [ ] crazy. Okay, they are still doing this [ ] Shane is in Boston playing against Ilia and while he's in town for the weekend, he is invited to visit Ilia at his Boston home. And after six [ ] years of hooking up, the two actually decide to spend the whole day together instead of just going home in the middle of the night as soon as they're done. They start doing things that they have never done before, like sharing a meal together, talking to one another for more than 5 minutes. They actually just hang out. And while they're chilling on the couch watching TV, Ilia pulls Shane to rest on his chest. One thing leads to another, and they have a little hanky panky on the couch. But it's not hanky panky because this time they're holding one another, caressing each other's faces, looking into each other's eyes for the first time ever. Instead of calling each other Hollander and Rosenoff, they call each other by their first names, Shane, Ilia. In the aftermath, overcome by his feelings, Shane is immediately like, "Yo, what the [ ] Ref, timeout. Okay, too much. It's moving too fast." Panics abruptly leaves because God forbid we actually are honest with our feelings. [ ] that. You know what I mean? That losers. Yeah. So, what do we do instead? What does Shane Hollander, Mr. Canada himself, decide to do? He finds a girlfriend.
Movie star actress Rose Landry. Okay, to be fair, she's cool. She's fine. But denial is a river in Egypt. Okay. Because throughout this entire basically PR relationship, Shane comes to terms with this realization that he is gay. He's not bisexual the way that Ilia is. And even with this beautiful, famous, and actually really kind of kind and funny woman standing in front of him, Shane realizes that not only is he gay, but he is starting to fall in love with just one other person, which is pretty good timing because at this point, the media circus is going crazy over this relationship with Shane and Rose. And Ilia is straight up crashing out. like he's watching all this play out on He thinks it's real. Okay. Yikes. Insanely jealous. Can't focus. Can't play. It's [ ] him up. And like as someone who loves yearning, like I hate to say it. I love that. You know, sorry. You're like eating the fluffy popcorn. I'mma eat that [ ] up. We love pining. We love yearing. Yeah. Yeah. So, I want to show you the scene of Ilia and Shane reuniting at the Allstar game. At this point, Shane has realized that this thing with him and Rose is not going to work out. They're not together anymore. And Shane and Ilia are spending the entire weekend in Tampa Bay at the same resort because of this all-star whatever. I wouldn't know. I'm not a professional athlete, so like I don't usually attend. Yeah, it's pretty cool. Uh, but after the All-Star game, they have a little chat. This is episode five now at the 19minute mark.
So, in this scene, Shane and Ilia are in a hotel room, and ladies and gentlemen, after seven years, we are finally sharing our feelings. We did it. We [ ] did it, okay? Because Shane opens up about everything. You know, this is different. These aren't just heartless hookups. Being with you has made me realize that I'm gay. And Ilia is still deflecting and kind of being an [ ] Like, okay, you're gay. So what? We [ ] And that's it. Wow. Good, right? Impeccable. And Shane says, "Well, it's kind of a big deal to me. At least sorry that I'm being boring again. It's not just being gay. It's you. It's this. Being gay is one thing, but this [ ] your arch rival is another thing. Last time, and for the record, I'm sorry about last time, okay? I'm sorry I freaked out. But before that, it was nice and it felt like we were something. Ilia gets this distant look in his eyes and says, "We can't be something, Hollander." And Shane says, "Would you want to be if we could?" We can't. That's not what I asked. What does it [ ] matter? I don't think I can keep pretending I don't like you anymore. And for a second, Ilia's Russian defenses begin to crumble. He tells Shane the truth about his family, about the dangers of going home if he were to ever come out. He tells Shane about his dad's declining health, the weight he carries, having to take care of them all. And then Ilia does the most shocking, the most outrageous, the most unbelievable thing. a macho alpha male could ever do. He starts crying and Shane wraps him up in his arms and the two then do the most intimate act humans are capable of. They hold each other. After this night, Shane and Ilia are done pretending, at least with each other. They care about each other. They like each other. But as we all know very well on this pod, feeling your feelings takes time and practice. There is a lot of unlearning, a lot of understanding how to feel safe in your own body. And then we're going to throw in another wrench into the mix because oh [ ] Ilia's dad dies. Ilia immediately goes home to Russia and in the wake of his grieving has some [ ] god awful conversations with his piece of [ ] brother. And it's all just too much for Ilia. And now I'm going to play you one of the most beautiful scenes in this entire show. And it is a phone call between Ilia and Shane while Ilia is away. And this is episode five at the 35 minute mark.
So in the scene, Ilia calls up Shane while Ilia's in Russia. And Shane is obviously very concerned about Ilia and wants to help him through his grief. But as Ilia is trying to tell him like what's going on and how he's feeling, he's like, "H, it's too much. English is too hard right now." So Shane says, "I have an idea. How about you tell me everything that's on your mind, but in Russian? I won't understand, but maybe it'll help." So then Ilia shares this incredibly poignant monologue, lamenting about his family, feeling his grief, and saying that he has no one aside from this lifelong friend of his, Fedlana. They love each other, sure, but he doesn't love her the way he loves Shane. Quote, "And that's the worst [ ] part of all of this, that all I want is you. It's always you. I'm so in love with you, and I don't know what to do about it." But again, this is in Russian, so Shane has no idea what Ilia just said on the other end of the line. Shane's like, "Word, word." Hm, maybe I should learn Russian. And then immediately cut to jokes to lighten the mood. Ilia's like, "Yeah, I'll teach you how to say all this dirty [ ] in Russian." And then Shane says, "Or how about, I wish you were here right now." And Ilia responds in Russian, "I wish I was, too."
So in all of these scenes that I have shared with you, I feel like the common theme amongst all of them is Shane and Ilia are just always so stilted in what they say when in reality they have an ocean of thoughts and feelings underneath. They just don't feel safe expressing it. At first, definitely not with each other, but over time, once they slowly build that trust, they realize they need to also feel safe within themselves. This is something that every single person can relate to. But I also don't want to overlook how Shane and Ilia's sexuality adds a very real layer of fear and complexity to it all. Straight couples have such a privilege when it comes to navigating relationships, at least publicly. There isn't any hiding that needs to be done. There isn't any confession or coming to terms with. Shane and Ilia do not have that luxury, which probably explains why it took so long to finally get here. And in this conversation, yes, Ilia is still somewhat hiding behind this Russian language. Still not quite ready to fully fully lay out every single thought and feeling for Shane to see. But at this point, after all the pretending, all the masking and skirting around and hiding the truth, it doesn't [ __ ] matter what is said or not said in English or in Russian. Because regardless of what you say or don't, all Shane needs to say back is, "I hear you. I know you. I know how you feel. and I will listen to you and I will hold you. And maybe that's what makes the story between Shane and Ilia so alluring to watch. Not the grand declarations, but the unspoken understanding that builds in spite of everything left unsaid. It's the way they learn slowly and painfully. that being known doesn't require perfect articulation, just the courage and patience to stay. And after years of hiding from the world, from each other, from themselves, they finally stop playing this game. They choose honesty, even when it's incomplete. And in that choice, in that stillness, after all the noise, they find something that was always waiting for them. A love that just can't be rivaled.
I love that you didn't show me a single hockey scene. There's not that much hockey in it. If I'm being like completely honest, there's not that much. Like, if I didn't know what this is about and I didn't get all the context, I would just think it's a drama between, you know, and honestly, I have to be so straight up ar there's so much on this show. Yeah. And there was this entirely completely other scene that I wanted to cover, too, but I was like, it's just too much. Yeah. And it sounds like you actually really do want to watch it. No, I'm good. Yeah. So, I feel like maybe it's a good thing. I don't spoil. Yeah. But just for anyone listening, the end of episode 5. What the [ ] Balling. Okay. But I just I I was like, there's more to say about this. Yeah. Should we do a follow-up episode after I finish? We [ ] could. At least in our [ ] intros, we can talk about it because truly so good. Yeah, I know. I I had a feeling too when I saw in the group chat that you were watching it, I was like, "Ooh, she's probably going to cry and then she's probably going to talk about it." Yeah. Yeah. I am so excited to watch it. But also like they're so real. like the way they're interacting with each other. Like it just feels like I'm already in love with them, you know? Like it it just feels like I'm actually watching two people like having this stilted. I love that word you use. And also like sometimes like awkward and like you're not really sure and I don't know. It's just like I can feel my chest constricting and like the scene that you showed me where they were in the hotel. They're all in hotels. every single one of these in a hotel. Um, but the scene where Shane gets in Ilia's lap at the end after I was like, "Oh my god, I'm going to [ ] I'm going to [ ] ball when I watch this." Like I Oh, it was in a safe space in my living room. Yes, exactly. Like it's just it feels so real. It feels so tense. Like it's just like you are so gripped by this. Oh my god, what the [ ] do I do? What the [ ] do I say? I can't say it. I'm too scared to say it. Mhm. But I just I love that this whole show takes you on this journey of like you don't have to say it because I know. Yeah. Because I feel it too, you know? Yeah. And I think that I think that finding someone that can hear you when you're not saying anything like that's 59 and 61, dude. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I mean, obviously like I know all the discourse around it, right? Even though I haven't because like you said, cultural phenomenon. Yeah. But like I I remember hearing about how they were playing like the music and stuff like at hockey games and how like everyone was like singing a lot, you know, like everyone was just and like thank you for sharing this story and I know it was probably a hard one to write because that seems like there's so much in these six episodes. but also the author too and everyone making this whole production. Like I just think that's so cool. And I know we've talked about this before, but like you know sharing stories that are not always front and center or narratives that aren't the popular one I feel like is such a like all of it such a brave thing to do. And even though it shouldn't be crazy that it is crazy that we have to be brave to like talk about a gay couple, but like still the world needs it. Clearly. Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. I have more to say. And I purposely did not transition into my official clothes because I knew you were going to go there. And this is the per like I that's I was like I don't want to write this. She'll say it. What do you mean? I didn't even know where I was going to go. I want to close by acknowledging this huge phenomenon that the show has been for so many reasons. Obviously, widely popular novel and series on which is based, the incredible job Jacob Tierney did bringing it to life and as you mentioned also the actors Hudson Williams, Connor Story, [ ] incredible. They were like no names in Hollywood. We just found these [ __ ] perfect gems. the most charismatic, the most charming people. I'm doing that thing, you know, like when you watch a show and then you're like, "Okay, well now I'm going to watch every edit, every interview, every BuzzFeed promo." You have to You have to do that, right? So, every single thing that I watch them in, I'm so in love with them. Yeah. I'm It's crazy. Um, throw him with Harry. Like, it's just Yeah. You know what I mean? Mhm. But obviously the most poignant part in all of this is that this story allowed people to see themselves in a kind of love that is so rarely given this level of care. It didn't just normalize queer relationships. It showcases them, giving male intimacy, vulnerability, and devotion the same depth and softness that audiences have always seen in straight romances. And for so many viewers, that recognition feels personal. I want to take a moment to shout out one of our cryb babies, Justin from Chicago, who had this to say about the show. crying constantly because the emotions and feelings that Shane and Ilia are going through felt like a buildup of all the anxiety, fear, love, hopes, and dreams I felt ever since I was a kid. Yeah, not the same exact scenarios. Obviously, Justin is not a professional hockey player, okay? He's a dentist.
But just the way it let me feel all of it again. Reliving parts of my own story was cathartic. I hid my relationship from my family for years and actually apologized to my parents when I came out, only to have the most love and support from them. This show is now my go-to for that ugly cry that just feels so good. The booties featured are just an added plus. So yeah, I just wanted to share one example of the impact that the show has had, Justin. Oh god, I love that. How special. I know. Beautifully said. I have nothing. What else can I add? Again, me saying words. Yeah, someone's already said them. Yeah, I will say this. You are in for a treat because I I [ __ ] barely talked about the show. It's been what? Thank you. It's been what? How long have I been recording now? Thank you. I appreciate that. I appreciate you having known that I haven't watched it yet and not wanting to completely spoil it for me. Yeah, I will watch it. I will I will start tonight. Okay. With your HBO login, though. Wow. Beautiful. Mhm. I love hockey. biggest fan. We always said we always said wonderful job. Should we call this episode like male vulnerability or like us women explaining male vulnerability? Wow. You know, womenplaining does not happen enough. It doesn't. But we are here to change that. We're here. All right. Well, that's what we got for you today. That's all we got. Hope you enjoyed it. Thank you everyone for listening. Yeah. We hope you shed some tears. Maybe laughed a little. Mhm. Learned a little. Yeah. Maybe have more content for you to consume. If you like me are so late to the game, maybe we can watch it together. Let us know what you think about the episode, thoughts, any uh things that I did not cover but have should have. But say it nicely. Don't be like, "H, you totally forgot this." Yeah. Be gentle with it, you know? Just don't be a dick. Don't be a dick. It's not hard. It's, you know, it's really not that hard. Sorry. I know this outro really got away from us. Opened up a can of worms there, but like now I'm like pissed off for like a comment we did not get.
Calm down. Okay. God. Anyway. All right. That's what we got. That's all we got. We will see you next time. But until then, be crying.
Until next time…brb crying :’)